Mindgame, Predict..., Help !!! Opzioni

[MahBoi]

Dopo essere stato tristockato da Moko, ho notato che nel mio gioco uso spesso anzi troppo spesso la stessa sequenza di mosse...E.G. Shuttle Loop o approach di dash + aba e sono diventato molto prevedibile...Come faccio a non essere + prevedibile, ovvero...Come miglioro il mio Mindgame ???

Ricordo a tutti che il mio main è Sonic e ha molti cancel, soprattutt per quanto riguarda lo Spin Dash e Spin Charge (vedere Anther e Mr.3000). So come cancellare ma non so mai come sfruttare al meglio queste potenzialità...Vi chiedo aiuto

Messaggio modificato da MahBoi il 09 Dec 2008, 00:08

[Malva]

Migliorare il tuo gioco non c'entra nulla con la tecnica, ma soltanto con la tua testa. Devi riuscire ad evadere dagli schemi di gioco e soprattutto dagli automatismi se vuoi vincere contro la maggior parte della gente e non contro un singolo. Per fare ciò devi sì giocare, ma (l'ho provato sulla mia pelle) non accade tutto da solo e per caso.
E' difficile che al tuo livello attuale ti renda conto degli errori che fa Moko e sfruttarli (don't worry non spiffero nulla Moko) perchè probabilmente non sei abbastanza concentrato sull'avversario ma più su te stesso (e questo lo deduco dai match che abbiamo fatto pochi giorni fa, potrei sempre sbagliare eh).
Per sistemare la cosa ti consiglio di fare qualche match "test", concentrandoti sugli errori che fai, su quelli che fa il tuo avversario e cercando di capire cosa avresti potuto fare, fregandotene del risultato. acendo così un po' alla volta riuscirai a concentrarti su più cose, non soltanto il tuo pg, ma anche sul nemico, sulle mosse che spamma, sugli smash a cazzo che fa e tutto il resto. Io ho "provato" ad usare questa tecnica circa due settimane fa per imparare ad usare bene MK, e due giorni fa con Diddy, con risultati soprendenti per me stesso. In poche parole gli errori nel tuo gioco li devi capire da solo, perchè se non capisci dove sbagli non rimedierai mai.
C'era un bellissimo topic di Mookierah su smashboards che parlava di questo ma non l'ho trovato.

Aggiungo una cosa: giocare in modo super-tech-fig-pro in brawl è inutile se poi vi beccate smash random in faccia.

[Malva]

------------Preface------------

I've recently made my reappearance back to these boards after a somewhat lengthy smash hiatus to find that A LOT of people have been making some seriously awesome articles/threads recently. To say nothing else, I am very excited, because seemingly out of nowhere a lot of people are coming to some of the same conclusions about high level play that I discovered a little while back. I don't think many people remember my old thread: Simple Effective Melee Advice, and sadly towards the end it devolved into an ideological battle between Forward and I over what was better for improvement, Playing to Learn or Playing to Win, but no matter, A LOT was said that is strikingly similar to these newer threads (albeit they worded them better and went far deeper than I did with it) which only further proves what I already thought to be true.

Mad props go to Wobbles and King for their current threads.

For those interested my old thread is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=85827

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A lot of people, a lot of smashers here, aren't even aware of one of the most basic functions of high level play. You will ALWAYS see people discussing tech skill and mindgames. Mindgames, the term at least, has become a joke throwaway word for the most part, because so few people actually realize what mingaming is and it is often misunderstood. Still, all you see are topics about those 2 things, but never do you come across a thread talking about observation.

EVERYTHING in smash comes down to observation. EVERYTHING. Did I say that enough? I don't think I did. Once again, EVERYTHING branches from your ability to process as much data as possible visually. Most players play the game half blind, to be blunt and honest. They look only at their character, and focus on trying to get those hot, stinky, wet, nasty combos. Everybody loves dem combos!!! All they see is the most basic set of information going on in the match, which is their character's placement in conjunction to their opponent. The thing is, there is so much more out there to look for. For starters, why do most players focus on their own character in the first place? What information do you get by focusing on your character? You are making your own inputs, so you *should* know what you are doing most of the time without needing to look at your character. The focus should CLEARLY be on your opponent. This is a small tip that goes A LONG way, but you never ever hear it discussed. Of course, from time to time you might stumble a wavedash or not do that dash when you hit the ground like you wanted to or what not, but even if the focus is on your opponent you can still see your character. Keep in mind you can see the whole screen and focus your attention on one spot. You don't have to predict your own moves, or look for your mistakes as much as your opponent. The ability to be able to see through your opponents strategies and take advantage of their mistakes is a lot harder to determine than your own.

I first began to notice the power of observation by ****ing around. My marth was crap, total and utter crap about a year ago. I didn't have jack **** tech skill with him, didn't really know any combos or setups and what not. Complete garbage. One day though, I got bored. So instead of trying to beat my friends in a match, I was just trying to make them look stupid. I didn't realize this, but it was the first time I gave my entire attention to my opponent. All the sudden, I'm winning by spamming well spaced smashes at oppertune times. All the sudden, I'm seeing and responding to missed techs with smashes. My opponents, while not as good as I were, were not horrible players. There was no reason in my mind why this was happening, I was not just winning, I was raping, by spamming no more than 6 attacks. I later dubbed this strategy the "Make you feel stupid Marth."

So how did that work? How was I able to see more all of the sudden? Simple really. I changed my goals. My focus was only to get in tippers and smashes. I limited myself to just one thing, and when I did that, I could see ALL of the openings for that one thing. Normally I would look at the big picture, and I wouldn't notice all of the small things going on. I was clouded by thinking I should have to do some combo, or some lead in, when the most obvious and most effective answer was right in front of my face. Once I realized this, I knew what I could do to improve my observation.

It's easy to improve your observational skills, but it does take some time. The trick is try looking for one new thing at a time. Keep doing it until it becomes second nature. Eventually you are used to doing it, and it requires little thought and effort to do. Some examples of things to look for in matches are as follows:

Missed Techs
Habits in your opponents techs (IE: if your opponent is prone to teching to stand, or rolling left or right predominately)
Opponents using their Second Jumps
Habits in your opponents recovery and ledge game
Discovering your own habits
Discovering your opponents strategy
Determining the morale of your opponent

There are loads more things than that, but that should be a good grounding. Keep in mind, that being able to notice just one of these things will improve one QUITE a bit. Also, the more and more you observe, the easier and easier it becomes to learn to observe other things in the match. It builds on itself until it gets to the point that you see just about all their is to see in the match. The more you see, the more you begin to realize that what you do and how very much affects your opponent. All of the sudden mindgames develop on their own from your understanding of what is going on around you. Instead of waiting for your opponent to fall into things on his own, you can actively pursue to MAKE your opponent fall into them. In effect, mindgames, or just smart playing, is a direct result of good observational skills and nothing more. It's sad how simple all this is, but because it has been so vaguely described and mysterious, most people don't know about it.

There is one last important thing I will take about, and that is the flow of the match. Remember my "Make you feel stupid Marth" example from earlier? There was more to it than me being able to see tips I didn't notice before and abusing it, a lot more. My opponent felt dumb, stupid, humiliated, and helpless to what was going on. How did this happen? What the hell is going on?

Establishing fear, or the feeling of helplessness, is something that even fewer people realize. All of us have felt it before, all of us has caused it before; however, few people understand truly how they did it or how they fell into it. It's also amazingly simple.

My best example is once again Marth, whom has become my champion in terms of establishing fear. Marth is already a character MANY players hate to play against, and a lot of players go into the fight already afraid of tippers and early ledgeguard kills. KNOW THIS. People are nervous at tournaments, even high level players are a bit nervous. You can USE this, as long as you stay calm. All it takes for me to scare an opponent is to make a few smart moves in the beginning. Focus on getting a few of those tippers off. All it takes is a few tips. While I don't advocate it, smack talking amplifies things. Catch your opponent in a few stupid tippers, and remind them that they were careless or just downright stupid to be caught in it in the first place. All you are doing right now, is working on their morale.

Once you have landed a few (or if you have landed a few) your opponent will already start to feel a lot of pressure. Especially in the case of Marth. They will start to fear your tips, and this places doubt in their mind. They begin to second guess themselves and are easily frustrated. At this point they make a lot more mistakes which leads to a lot more tips. It's a snowball effect that leaves most players on their knees, unable to realize what is really going on namely because most players aren't fully aware of what is going on. It gets worse and worse, and by the end of the first match, they have already lost the set. You have completely and totally destroyed their morale. Not only that, they will probably even play worse in their next matches. Ever wondered exactly why you were having a bad smash day? A lot of times it wasn't so much you were playing bad, it's because your morale has gone so low that you are afraid of everything your opponent throws at you.

Hopefully by now you are beginning to understand why I'm passionate AND frustrated over the subject of observation and the role it plays. All to often I hear dudes rambling on about their favorite mindgame and I wish I could punch people through the internet. Hopefully this cleared a lot of things up.



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Dan2GSSM: eh, some of my friends are reluctant to play me...
MookieRah: ah, then they aren't the type for tournament smash then
Dan2GSSM: they're not quite "hardcore" or anything like that
MookieRah: if they aren't willing to put in at least a little time practicing higher level tech stuff then they won't ever get very good
Dan2GSSM: lol, true...
MookieRah: it's really not asking much
MookieRah: a lot of people overtrain tech skill
MookieRah: all you really need is about 5-10 minutes per day
MookieRah: you have to build muscle memory and stuff like that
MookieRah: people who will practice l-canceling for an hour aren't getting much out of it XD
Dan2GSSM: I find that trying to get better at ssbm is a lot like trying to get stronger at hte gym...
MookieRah: yeah, it's a lot like that.
MookieRah: you are better off practicing tech skill for 5-10 minutes, waiting 30 minutes to an hour, and doing it again for 5-10 more minutes
Dan2GSSM: lol, ok, i'll try that
MookieRah: if you practice things too much you build up bad habbits
MookieRah: you don't want to just be running through motions and patterns on your opponent
MookieRah: you just need to learn "how" to do things
Dan2GSSM: that's very true
MookieRah: also, when you play your friends don't play to win
MookieRah: play to learn
MookieRah: try applying the things you practice, focus on problems in your play
MookieRah: these are matches against your friends, you shouldn't be focussed on winning all the time
MookieRah: if you do you will do 2 things: discourage them by beating them more and stunting your training
Dan2GSSM: you speak the truth
MookieRah: meh, it's not that crazy, lol
MookieRah: but i wish i had someone to tell this to me
Dan2GSSM: i can understand that
MookieRah: one major thing to focus on is your observation skills
MookieRah: look for oppertunities like missed techs and what not
MookieRah: even if you aren't fast enough to react to them look for it, you have to practice looking stuff
MookieRah: but after a while it all becomes second nature
MookieRah: most mindgames too, become second nature
Dan2GSSM: i've just started to notice things like that
MookieRah: in the beginning it requires a lot of thought
MookieRah: but after you are used to particular strategies you just go into action
MookieRah: too much thought is bad, too little thought is bad
MookieRah: however; it's better to think too much than too little
MookieRah: these are things that for the longest time i didn't practice or try to implement
MookieRah: i was just playing reactive and with my instincts
MookieRah: it just came to me one day on a whim
Dan2GSSM: whims are funny things like that
MookieRah: yeah
MookieRah: i was ****ing around
MookieRah: i have said this on the boards many times
MookieRah: the best way to work on these things is just to **** around with dudes
MookieRah: don't try to win, try to make them look stupid
Dan2GSSM: lol
MookieRah: you'll be amazed at how well you can observe and take advantage of things if your goal is just to make them feel retarded
MookieRah: don't worry about trying to implement these things all at once though
MookieRah: focus on one thing at a time
MookieRah: it will all come with due time, no need to rush it
MookieRah: almost anyone can be incredibly good at this game
MookieRah: it's just that some people have an easier time learning it
MookieRah: a lot of potentially great people tried to get too good too fast, got frustrated, and quit
MookieRah: don't be potentially great
MookieRah: be great, and don't worry
MookieRah: have fun with it

Messaggio modificato da Malva il 09 Dec 2008, 00:38

[Leo]

mai visto così tanto inglese in vita mia...
cmq per essere meno prevedibile devi sempre cambiare approccio d'attacco,fare finte inditereggiare con scatti, in poche paole non devi dare modo al tuo avversario di capire quello che fai .....questo è mindgame

Messaggio modificato da Malva il 09 Dec 2008, 00:46

[MahBoi]

Questa era la risposta che cercavo...Grazie mille Malva

Vedrò di concentrarmi di più d'ora in avanti sui vari errori mei e dei miei avversari e chissà se un giorno non riesca a portare il mio Sonic ad un livello davvero "avanzato"

Appena sarai disponibile vorrei provare a fare pratica di questa tecnica anche con te, che di errori ne fai non troppo come il resto di noi...Sarebbe un buon esercizio per me



Molto bene ^^

[Malva]

mai visto così tanto inglese in vita mia...
cmq per essere meno prevedibile devi sempre cambiare approccio d'attacco,fare finte inditereggiare con scatti, in poche paole non devi dare modo al tuo avversario di capire quello che fai .....questo è mindgame

no, è una definizione troppo specifica per il mindgame questa. Direi quasi "stupida".

Il mind game IO lo definirei circa come il giocare usando la testa e sfruttando tutto quello che si conosce sul gioco e sull'avversario. Purtroppo anche così è soltanto una visione stereotipata della cosa, ma uno quando ci arriva davvero sa bene cos'è il mindgame, e sa bene che non si può descrivere a parole così facilmente.

[Omega]

ma uno quando ci arriva davvero sa bene cos'è il mindgame, e sa bene che non si può descrivere a parole così facilmente.

qft

[Vincent46]

Il mindgame non va definito a parole dai, dire che sia fare finte e essere imprevedibili è riduttivo, ma tanto credo che più o meno tutti sappiamo cosa si intenda con questa parola

Messaggio modificato da Vincent46 il 09 Dec 2008, 13:12

[Lonzo]

Mindgame è quando il tuo avversario, che usa Ganondorf, invece di inseguirti fuori dal bordo con un aerial come ti aspetteresti, si ferma, si gira e inizia a caricare un Pugno Mago in direzione opposta a te. Nell'arco di 2 secondi succedono le seguenti cose:
1) tu ti chiedi "Ma che diavolo sta facendo?"
2) nel frattempo esegui la tua consueta procedura per ritornare in campo
3) ti rendi conto che c'è qualcosa che non va, che la traiettoria che ti eri prefisso di seguire per rientrare ti porterà più vicino al Pugno Mago di quanto ti aspetti
4) pensi "No, dai, è impossibile, non può aver previsto che mi sarei mosso così..."
5) "NOOOO!"
6) il tuo personaggio si disintegra contro il palmo infuocato di Ganondorf








Vabbé, dai, è l'esempio più carino che mi è venuto in mente.

Messaggio modificato da Lonzo il 09 Dec 2008, 13:39

[Malva]

Il mindgame non va definito a parole dai, dire che sia fare finte e essere imprevedibili è riduttivo, ma tanto credo che più o meno tutti sappiamo cosa si intenda con questa parola

Ricitando il vecchio Dax no, non è così. Ora non ho voglia di cercarti il topic se ti serve trovatelo xP
Proprio il fatto che tu possa pensare che tutti abbiano capito cos'è il mg mi fa dubitare della cosa.

[DarkRoy]

Il mindgame è il riuscire a colpire l'avversario senza venir colpiti

[Malva]

w la figa

[Air]

w Lonzo


Comunque belissimo il post riportato da Malva, peccato che il torneo sia vicino e non abbia l'opportunità di giocare molto per provare questo nuovo modo di vedere il gioco...

Messaggio modificato da AirFra il 09 Dec 2008, 15:34

[DarkRoy]

w la figa

rispondi al post coione

[Malva]

a cosa dovrei rispondere? è praticamente un copia incolla di una mia frase detta millenni fa CULATTONE